Live Guide Source Information FAQ
Q: Why are you calling for Hole traders to start to keep track of source and generation information?
A: One of the issues that have continually tainted the Hole trading community is the lack of source and generation information. It makes trading in communities outside our own next to impossible because most communities keep track of this information. And these traders are justified to be wary of Hole bootlegs; without keeping track of source and generation information Hole shows are circulating in degraded quality.
When analog (cassette or videotape) recordings are copied, quality is lost. Each time a cassette is copied, distortion and tape hiss are added to audio sources and video quality also degrades. How much quality is lost depends on the equipment used. Therefore there is a huge difference in sound between a show that is transferred to CDR from the original, analog master and a show transferred from a copy of a copy of a copy of the analog master. Sometimes it is not possible to get the master recording, but the next best source should be used when transferring to CDR. If we keep track of the source that has been transferred to CDR, it is easy to figure out when a better recording has surfaced. As it stands right now the sources for most Hole bootlegs are unknown so it is harder to know what shows are in need of upgrades and we have to assume that unknown generations are highly generated.
It is important to keep track of generations of digital media (DATs, DVDs, and CDRs) as well. Even though digital copies are supposed to be identical, no burner is error-proof. With each copy (or generation) of a show that is made there is an increased chance of digital errors like pops and clicks. As it stands in the Hole community now, we get a CDR from a trader and perhaps it has an error, but since we don’t know who the trader got their copy from and so on back through the line, it is hard to trace where the error originated or if it is part of the original recording.
To preserve Hole’s live recordings and get the best quality shows out there to as many fans as possible in accordance with the mission of this site it is necessary to begin keeping track of source and generation information and to begin replacing Hole shows of unknown origin with those with known source information.
Q: How is source and generation information notated?
A: Here is a basic example of generation notation that you might see on someone’s trade list: ANA(2)>CDR(4)
This means that the show originally taped on an analog cassette. A copy of a copy of that master analog cassette was transferred (indicated by the > symbol) to CDR. The person listing this show has a copy of a copy of a copy of the CDR that the show was transferred to. When you received the show from this person your generation would be: ANA(2)>CDR(5)
And you should include that information on your trading site.
So basically each time something is copied from the master, the generation gets higher and the number following the format abbreviation goes up. A master copy is indicated by (M). Please note that there is no such thing as CDR(M) (unless you are copying from a commercial bootleg, which will be explained shortly), since a show is being transferred to CDR from another source, the first CDR copy is CDR(1). For example, if you recorded a show on MiniDisc yourself and then put it on CDR, the generation information of your CDR would be:
MD(M)>CDR(1)
Q: What are the abbreviations for the different media formats?
A: These are the types of media live shows can be recorded on and the abbreviations used for them in trading:
+ Analog cassette is notated as ANA.
+ Digital cassette is notated as DAT.
+ MiniDisc is notated as MD.
+ Video is notated as VID.
These are then transferred into formats that can be traded either by mail or electronically.
Hard copy formats that can be mailed include:
+ CDR
+ VCD (Though VCD trading is not condoned on this site)
+ DVD-R (Though DVD-R trading is touched upon in more detail in the DVD Trading FAQ
Electronic formats include:
+ WAV (When shows are transferred from ANA, DAT, VID, and MD to CDR, they are generally recorded as .wav files on a PC first. Then they are recording to CD using a burning program such as Nero.)
+ MP3 (Though MP3 trading is not condoned on this site, see here for why.) (link to either electronic trading section or to the specific question if possible)
+ RA (For the same reasons as MP3s, RA is not condoned on this site. In fact RA is worse than MP3.)
+ FLAC
+ SHN
For information on electronic trading please see the Electronic Trading FAQ.
Analog cassettes were the most common way of taping shows during Hole’s Pretty on the Inside and Live Through This tours. MiniDisc recording became more prominent during the Celebrity Skin tour and is common now. If you were the taper of a show using analog equipment or have been lent the original tape to transfer to CD, this would be notated as ANA(M). More likely people have copies of the master tape to transfer to CDR. A copy of the master tape is notated as ANA(1). A copy of the copy of the master tape would be ANA(2) and so on. The same notation system applies to DAT, MD, and VID. As stated earlier, generally, the higher the generation number, the worse the quality is.
When a show is transferred to CDR, the CDR copy that is made from the ANA, DAT, MD, or VID source has a generation of CDR(1). The copy that is made from that copy has a generation of CDR(2) and so on. The same applies for transfers to DVD-R.
So a copy of a copy of an analog master transferred to CDR would be notated as: ANA(2)>CDR(1)
A copy of a video master transferred to DVD-R and then copied would be notated as: VID(1)>DVDR(2)
Some analog cassettes have been transferred to DAT since DAT, like CD, is a digital copy and doesn’t lose quality. So if a first generation copy from an analog tape were copied to DAT before it is copied to CD it would be notated as ANA(1)>DAT(1)>CDR(1)
Q: What about shows recorded from the radio or television?
A: If a show was recording from the radio, it should be notated as FM>ANA(1) (or DAT or MD or whatever format it was copied to). If it was then transferred to CDR it would be notated as FM>ANA(1)>CDR(1).
The same applies to Television; it would be notated as TV>VID(1). Then if it was transferred to DVD: TV>VID(1)>DVDR(1)
Q: What about commercial/silver disc/original bootlegs?
Some Hole shows have been released on CD by commercial bootleg companies, examples are Ugly Demented World, Courtney Act, Pretty in Paris, Pretty in Pink, etc. These are known as ‘silver discs’ because the discs are silver, mirror-bottomed just like any other officially released CD you would by in the store; they are not CDRs and they always have artwork. (Please note however that commercial bootlegs are NOT official releases, the money does not go to the band, and legality of the companies selling CDs is iffy.) Additionally, some of these commercial bootlegs such as Pretty in Paris have been released on vinyl. In some cases fan-recorded bootlegs are better quality or more complete than these commercial bootlegs, but in other cases the commercial bootleg is better quality or the only available version of this show. The Hole Live Guide does rank commercial bootlegs with fan-made bootlegs so that you can get the best available version of the show. We encourage people to trade “liberated” copies of commercial bootlegs. The generation information for a copy of an original bootleg that was released on CD would be: CD(M)>CDR(1)
Or for a copy of a copy of an original bootleg: CD(M)> CDR(2)
And so on as more copies are made.
A copy from an original bootleg released on vinyl would be: LP>CDR(1)
Since certain shows, for example the 1994 Reading Festival have been released by several different bootleg companies with different names, it is good to keep track of the bootleg name as well as note. For example:
CD(M)>CDR(2) (Sourced from Ugly Demented World original).
Q: What if I fix the sound quality of a show that I transfer?
A: If the person who transfers a show to CDR remasters, equalizes, or speed corrects the show, this should be noted. For example it could be noted in the generation like this: ANA(1)>EQ>CDR(1) or ANA(2)>CDR(1)>speed corrected>CDR(2)
And/or it can be a note included in with the generation information. It is common to note who did the remastering when a show is remastered. When you trade with a person who has these kinds of notes please include them in your trading list as well. Having the most complete information possible about your shows means circulating the best shows out there.
Q: What are some of the other abbreviations I am seeing on traders lists?
A: Some traders keep track not only of the type of format a show was recorded on, but also on the equipment (recorders and microphones) used to record the show. Again if you trade with someone who has this information, please include this information on your trade list because the most information known about a recording leads to finding and making sure the best recordings are circulating.
We are still gathering more equipment abbreviations. This is what we have so far:
WM=Walkman
D3=Sony WM-D3 analog OR Sony TCD-D3 DAT
D5=Sony TC-D5 analog
D6=Sony WM-D6 analog
D7=Sony TCD-D7 DAT
D8=Sony TCD-D8 DAT
D100=Sony TCD-D100 DAT
M1=Sony PCM-M1 DAT
PC-62=Sony PC-62 mic
ECMxxx=Refers to the many Sony ECM versions
CSB=Core Sound Binurals (www.core-sounds.com)
SS=Sonic Studios (www.sonicstudios.com)
DSM-X=Refers to the many Sonic Studios DSM versions
Research gathered from LiveNirvana. Props to them once more.
Q: What do I do about unknown generations?
A: Unfortunately it is a sad reality that most Hole shows that are circulating right now have unknown generations. Unknown generations are usually assumed to be high generations and therefore worse quality shows. We should all be working to replace our shows with unknown generation information with those that have known generations. The good people running the Hole Live Guide are currently searching the trading world for Hole shows with known generations, when we find them they are included and ranked with the other known sources of Hole shows. If you have a known source for a Hole show that currently doesn’t have a known source please report it to us.
In the meantime, shows with unknown generation information should be noted with a question mark in place of the generation number for example:
An unknown CDR is notated as CDR(?)
VID is VID(?)
ANA is ANA(?)
And so on.
So if you have a show that you know was transferred from a video, but you don’t know what generation, and you don’t know what generation your CD is (like you don’t know if you got it from the person who transferred the show, or from a person who got it from the person who transferred the show) you would note it like this:
VID(?)>CDR(?)
If you don’t know the generation of the video transferred, but at least know that your CD copy is a copy from a person who got it from the person who transferred the show, you would note it like this:
VID(?)>CDR(2)
Though we may not have the generation information for the source of a show, it is VERY important that we at least start keeping track of the generation of our CDR copies where possible.
Q: Are there any other notes I should keep about my shows?
A: Listen to your shows and make sure there are no errors, clicks, or gaps between tracks. If there are you should note it. The Hole Live Guide has detailed notes for each circulating show so that you can see if the errors your disc are errors that are present in all copies of the show or if you should be looking for a better copy of the show.